When Sara Mansour started her first job as corporate lawyer at a top tier Sydney firm as a young graduate in 2017, she remembered nervously emailing the firm’s partner. She asked if she could leave work at 5pm and work from home to break fast with her family during Ramadan.
The request was met with no response. Embarrassed, Sara took it as a sign to put her head down and not ask for any accommodations. She quietly consumed the firm’s office dinner at 7:30 pm and did not ask for any changes for diet or time.
But her silence took a toll. Like a lot of workers post-pandemic, the situation prompted Sara to think about burnout, flexibility and what was truly important to her. She quit her job, shifted to a smaller suburban firm, and now works in-house. It’s a far cry from the high stakes prestige world of corporate law but she couldn’t be happier.
It made me rethink what my professional goals and aspirations were because my faith is a big part of who I am.Sara Mansour
Unpaid work and the extra mental load and domestic labour often placed on women and mothers in Ramadan is something Sara also wants to push back against.
It's a recipe for mental health breakdown…we're at a turning point in the world and in our generation where we can choose to...push back against those unrealistic expectations.Sara Mansour
For young cadet journalist Najma Sambul, working full time has meant trying to find extra time for community as she juggled the demands of fasting and a 9 to 5 schedule.
Najma also struggled to resist the temptation to bring to Ramadan the same kind of Type-A outlook she had with her career; approaching the month with big transformational ambitions for self-improvement.
Just slow down and just show up. It's a gear change and a mindset shift, to be able to approach Ramadan in this kind of hustle climate.Najma Sambul
LISTEN TO
“Not Even Water?!”: Ramadan and work
SBS Audio
12/04/202330:25
My Ramadan is a five-part podcast about how we experience Ramadan and Eid in modern multicultural Australia.
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CREDITS
Host: Sarah Malik
Executive producers: Sarah Malik and Caroline Gates
Audio Engineer: Jeremy Wilmot
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah Malik: I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the lands on which I'm recording from. I pay my respects to the Cammerygal people and their Elders past and present. I'd also like to acknowledge the traditional owners of all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander lands you are listening from and extend this respect to any First Nations listeners.
Sara Mansour (promo): I decided that I wanted to work in a workplace that accepted the entirety of me, didn't just put up my photos and use me in video campaigns because that was awesome for promoting the firm's diversity, but that actually accepted and celebrated all the aspects of my identity.
Sarah: Hi. I'm Sarah Malik, your host for ‘My Ramadan’, a podcast about how we experience Ramadan and Eid in modern multicultural Australia. When I was a young journalist, I was worried that fasting would make others see me as somehow less capable of doing the work. So I doubled down and didn't ask for accommodations. But now terms like quiet quitting burnout and work-life balance are gaining more traction and there's big conversations on how to make workplaces more inclusive. Today I talk to journalists Najma Sambul and lawyer Sara Mansour on how they navigate fasting and work. Welcome to the show Sara and Najma.
Sara: Thank you so much.
Najma Sambul: Thanks so much for having me.
Sarah: Najma you wrote a piece in The Age about fasting titled ‘Coffee? No thanks, jumping hurdles to negotiate Ramadan in the office’. I was wondering if you could read an excerpt from your piece?
Najma: Yeah sure. ‘I explained the basics of fasting and nod along to the over-the-top apologies, that include follow-up questions. Like what if you get a headache? This would be okay if it didn't happen up to five times an hour. I don't have time or the energy to keep explaining. For god sakes, I'm fasting!’
Sarah: I love that. I think that's like my favourite part of your piece. So what is it like being a journalist and fasting at work, Najma?
Najma: As you probably know, really difficult, it’s quite hard. It's a job that requires a lot of brain power and when you're fasting it can be so awkward to be flatter than what you usually are. So I think it's a combination of just hard and awkward.
Sarah: Do you do the explaining to colleagues or is that something that you've decided, ‘Hey, I'm going to stop doing that.’
Najma: It's a case-by-case situation for sure. Case by case, but I try not to bring it up. I know that sounds bad, but I'm no longer the one who's, like, completely earnest myself, in the way I go about explaining it, like I'm trying to do less.
Sarah: Because it's a very tongue-in-cheek piece that you wrote. Was that a deliberate thing as a reaction against that earnestness?
Najma: Yeah, for sure. It was me rebelling against the seriousness of how people approach those conversations in the corporate workplace. It can become so like, oh my God, this is not International Women's day. Like we don't have to do this!
Sarah:. (laughs). Let's chill guys
Okay. Sara for you, you experienced Ramadan and fasting, as a young graduate corporate lawyer at a top-tier firm. Can you tell us about that experience?
Sara: So, basically I was a graduate lawyer in 2017 and I had sent an email to the partner explaining that it's Ramadan and saying that, I hope that I would be able to break my fast with my family and also…
Sarah: And speaking of family, that's your little girl there. She's included in the podcast today.
Sara: Who’s just decided that now is a great time to start singing. Basically the upshot is that it was my worst Ramadan. What happened was, I sent an email to the partner and basically said that it's Ramadan and it would be amazing if I could go home a little bit early, which was 5:00 o’clock to break my fast with my family and I'll make sure that I take my laptop with me and that I'm on top of my work, and to that email I received no response. And I guess no response is also a response which means you better sit your arse down and do your work in the office. And so I had no choice but to work late every day and I was breaking my fast when they were serving dinner at the firm at 7:30 and not once did any of the partners ask me if I was okay, or how it was going. And you know, like there was just no acknowledgement of it. It was just funnily enough as if I didn't really exist.
Sarah: Oh my gosh. You were having dinner at 7:30 at night, the corporate dinner that everyone in the law firm had…
Sara: That wasn't even halal!
Sarah: You literally didn’t ask for any accommodations or an earlier time. Why didn't you like, what was the feeling that you had about asking for accommodations?
Sara: So I think that part of it is that you're a graduate lawyer, so you don't think you're entitled to even ask for accommodations like it's not something that crosses your mind. Like, that's even a possibility. So yeah I didn't even think to ask to have dinner served earlier to me or to ask for halal options because I thought that I was so lucky and so privileged to even be in that position as a graduate lawyer in a top-tier firm and I should just put my head down and do the work.
Sarah: Gosh. And so that was like your first Ramadan as a working woman in that firm. Basically, being made to feel invisible. How did that shape your relationship with Ramadan and work?
Sara: Well, I think two things, it made me reinforce the values of Ramadan and community and family and spirituality and it also made me rethink what my professional goals and aspirations were because my faith is a big part of who I am. And to have to have made those concessions and receive no acknowledgement of it, and no kind of empathy or understanding in return, it just wasn't a valuable trade off for me. So I decided that I wanted to work in a workplace that accepted the entirety of me, you know, didn't just put up my photos and use me in video campaigns because that was awesome for promoting the firm's diversity, but that actually accepted and celebrated all the aspects of my identity and the diversity of who I am as a person and what I bring even when it's not convenient.
Sarah: Wow. And so you made some choices after that Ramadan, didn't you, in your first year at a corporate law firm, what happened after that experience?
Sara: So, not long after I ended up moving to a mid-tier firm and then I actually moved to a small suburban firm and in that small suburban firm the principal solicitor is a Muslim man, so he was very attuned to the fact that I needed to be leaving early, (and) there were going to be extra kinds of responsibilities and obligations.
Sarah: So you decided, hey, I'm going to drop off this corporate loop, this corporate train because this is not for me. This is not giving me the balance that I need.
Sara: Yeah, absolutely. It's not that I didn't want to be a lawyer, you know. I really love the law and I love practising and I'm actually working in-house at the moment at a not-for-profit organisation, that’s also really flexible and really accommodating. But I think that I realised that in that big firm especially there's one way to work even though they will tell you that there are other ways to work really, in that team at least, there was one way to work and they wanted you to be very office-facing. And if you were leaving at 6:00 p.m. that meant that you had capacity.
Sarah: Wow.
Sara: Yeah. I just decided that that's not something that aligned with what I valued and it's not workable for me.
Sarah: Yeah, I mean, and it does come with its challenges, doesn't it, like pretending you're okay when you're tired or hangry, and you need some accommodations. Najma how do you handle that?
Najma: I don't. I think it's just like getting through it and just putting your focus on what you can kind of control. And I'm never going to be able to control the fact that I'm going to be hangry during Ramadan while working. And I think just accepting it and just really just keeping laser focused to the end of the day and when you get to go home and hang out with your family and you get to contribute and cook with your mum. And yeah, you just kind of laser focus on that and you just let the hangriness and the difficulty wash over you because the more you fight it, the bigger it becomes. You are never going to conquer that beast, so you just don't.
Sarah: Okay, it is what it is! Now look, let's talk about the first aid room because there's a really quite funny excerpt that you have in your piece about the iconic first aid room. This humble room kind of becomes a hot focal point for a lot of us in Ramadan at work. And this pod is all about Ramadan and work. So, I was wondering if you could read that passage Najma.
Najma: Yes, yes I can. “So, in the world of corporate allyship, I've seen a lot of prayer rooms, The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, no matter how rundown they are, how mouldy the carpet smells, a prayer room in Ramadan, is golden. The worst prayer room is no prayer room.”
Sara: I love it. Now, you have a really good story about first aid rooms.
Najma: Right, okay, so I work in the channel 9 building and we are on level 7 and it's a very beautiful amazing level. So no shade to this level. Last year was my first Ramadan working at The Age and I'm doing my cadetship, so Sara I can kind of relate to this, it's a privileged position you're in and you do what it takes, no matter what. And yeah, there was a bit of an issue about no prayer room and I was given the option of the first aid room to be like, a place that I could go, which is nice, but it's the first aid room and so, yeah, that's just it's my little sanctuary. It's my prayer room and I contemplated telling other people about that, but I just don't even broadcast it. I'm only there for a couple of minutes intermittently throughout the day and it's just kind of like my little secret. So maybe some other Muslims in the workplace can relate. But the first aid room always has a lock and that kind of like, lets you focus on your salat instead of feeling uncomfortable that someone's just going to burst in and see you like, on the ground praying.
Sara: Which actually happened to me!
Sarah: No! Ok Sara, we need to hear this story. Was it a partner or like someone in the law firm?
Sara: Gosh. Yes, I had got into a meeting room and in this meeting room, there was a cupboard that had instruments. So I thought well the best thing that I could do is open the cupboard door and pray behind it, so no one will see me if they're walking past. And then one of the kind of, you know, support people, he walked in and then he sees me standing behind the cupboard door with my shoes off and he's like, can I help you? And I was like, yeah, I was just praying. Sorry. And then he's like, “oh, I'm sorry.” I'm like, “I'm so sorry.” And then he just ran away. And I was like, so, red, because it probably looked like I was trying to, like, steal some instruments or something like that.
Sarah: You are like, I am not doing anything illegal here or unethical! I am just shrouded in a bit of secrecy right now, I'm behind a cupboard trying to do my thing in Ramadan. Yes. Lots of awkward moments. And look, I say just have a nap while you're in there. Like you've got a room, you've got a lock. No one needs to know about that.
Najma: Hey, I've had a few power naps in that first aid room and I know a few other people have as well. It’s got a bed! (laughs)
Sarah: I find that it gets kind of crowded. Like you start to see little evidence of other people using it in Ramadan sometimes and there's like a bit of a traffic situation. So I find it really interesting getting to meet other people in the building that you might not have met.
Najma: Every time I hear ‘first aid room’, I always smile because, if you think about
the evolution of it even in like school, it was a place that you got to go to and your mum would pick you up. And so it's always been a safe place and now as a grown adult, who just wants to pray quietly without someone bursting in. Yeah, I feel like, props to the first aid room
Sarah: Props to the first aid room. It needs to have some kind of homage to it. It's interesting, you know, we live in a time where we're talking a lot about burnout and work-life balance. And I wonder how Ramadan fits in with that for both of you. Does Ramadan help you resist hustle culture Najma?
Najma: Yeah, of course, like, I feel like when you're abstaining from food and water throughout the whole day, like you're so limited in what you can really give your energy to. So, I personally find myself really just focused on what's important. I find time is quite precious in the sense of like, I don't, I don't waste it as much as I would. And in terms of hustle culture, I think like I'm trying to avoid having the same kind of outlook that I have with my career and wanting to do really well in it to stop trying to transfer that onto my faith because those are two different things that require two different approaches. For example, I think a lot of people have their Ramadan diaries and they're really awesome and amazing. The Ramadan diaries are quite a contemporary part of the toolkit. It could feel like a lot that you feel like you need to get so much done in Ramadan the same way you would try to approach a work day. And I feel like that's kind of not the point of Ramadan. I think Ramadan is to just like, slow down and to, you know, just show up. Like I feel like I have to have a gear change and a mindset shift, to be able to approach Ramadan in this kind of hustle climate, hustle culture. I almost want to do the opposite and like do less, but do it really well.
Sarah: Yeah, I mean, Sara, does that relate to you this idea of having to do everything so well and setting goals and doing everything perfectly and you can kind of project that onto Ramadan too and make it a kind of work thing. You know, it feels like another mountain of work, you're putting on yourself, like is that something that you have to resist?
Sara: I learnt kind of in the last few years, especially when I was forced not to fast because I was pregnant or breastfeeding, that I need to give myself grace and that there are so many ways to keep in touch and reconnect with your spirituality that have nothing to do with the actual act of abstaining from food and water because we know that fasting is not just limited to that. For me, I think that the hardest thing I found in Ramadan has been yeah, giving myself grace, and then also learn how to fast from all of the other things, you know, like the gossiping and the lying and the consumerism, and just really dialling it, all of that down, and focusing on my mental and spiritual well-being.
Sarah: Yeah. And speaking of that, you know, you can really bring an A-type persona to Ramadan and it becomes about doing everything perfectly and dieting. And so Najma is that something you really felt like you had to dial down this kind of Ramadan perfection and Ramadan has a diet culture type thing.
Najma: 100%. I feel like that's a conversation that so many people, men and women have about Ramadan that's like oh like I'm going to be like, I want to do better. I'm going to eat healthier. I'm going to go for walks after I break the fast, just because like the pendulum does swing the other way with Ramadan and you do find yourself eating a little bit unhealthily and you know, just, I don't know, feeling guilty for that because you might be a little bit too tired to go to pray with your family at the masjid and I don't know. I feel like this is the first year I'm going to go into Ramadan without limiting myself. So I feel like this is the first Ramadan that I'm going to go into it without, even like thinking about diets without thinking about, you know, getting walks in. I'm just going into it just completely focused on Ramadan and enjoying that month for what it is. Like I think because Ramadan is this dedicated month of like, abstaining, you feel like you can almost abstain from your other bad habits that have nothing to do with your faith. Yeah, it can become a bit of a conundrum. But this year is the first year that I'm not, like, I'm not even going to discuss it besides obviously, talking about it now, but no mention of diets. Yeah, that's not happening! Diets are being cancelled this year.
Sarah: Diets are cancelled! Yes! So you like what is your routine like? Like how does it change? Because being a journalist is really hectic, you are talking to a million people a day, you're running around, you know, going to press conferences and things. So your Ramadan and fasting has changed to when you were a child and so, how do you manage it? How do you get that me time, that breathe time?
Najma: I think it's like now, like really trying to appreciate going to the masjid and like being a part of the community and helping out more. I think that allows me to get in touch with what Ramadan used to be growing up. When you're working in that kind of, you know, classic 9 to 5 schedule, it can be very easy for you to just do the bare minimum, go home, eat and then feel so tired that you like you don't go to the nightly prayers with everyone because you're so tired and you want to be fresh for the next day. I think it's just like just going with the flow and trying to see as many people as possible because I feel like when you go to the mosque and when you're around your community, you see people you haven't seen in years and you only see them in Ramadan. And, you know, there's my friends who are like dentists and you know who are in med school or you know who are working a sales job. Like I see people that are in different professional industries and we're all at the masgid together and it's just a good time to just see people. Yeah and it's a great time to just connect with a part of you that's felt so dormant for so long.
Sarah: Yeah and it's like; it's really interesting, I feel like Ramadan interferes with your day and your routine in a way that nothing else does and it takes primacy. You know, it's like and that's something that, you know, it's really hard when you are just in this productivity cycle and you've got A and B and C to do and you've got work. It kind of just says, look no that's all going to take the background for a bit while you're going to focus on your spirituality. Is that something that's powerful for both of you? Sara?
Sara: Yeah, definitely. I mean, my relationship with Ramadan has evolved so much. When I was a kid, it was more about just getting to have a feast when we broke our fast. And I mean, I feel so sorry for my mum, Because we didn't even ever think to, like, help her out with the cooking or the cleaning up afterwards, because, you know, we were so exhausted from fasting. And now that I'm a mother and a wife myself, I'm also interested in kind of having traditions and maybe having traditions that aren't so traditional. But like, you know, little things with my family and just enjoying the month in ways that make it feel like it actually counts. So, for example, what my sisters and I do at the start of Ramadan is we just get some cardboard and make kind of little Ramadan lanterns and get cellophane paper and stuff them and bejewel them or argue that our Ramadan lantern is the best. Like just we have a crafternoon and it's a fun way to welcome the month and also, yeah push back against the idea that the whole month has to be about engorging yourself in food and all of the wastage that comes with that.
Sarah: An interesting concept you mentioned before around sustainable iftars could you talk a bit about that?
Sara: There are some people who identify as green Muslims and the whole ethos is to live in a way that's aligned Islamically with sustainable and environmentally friendly practices. So things that the green Muslims will do in Ramadan, you know, not have any plastic tableware or anything like that, and they might get together and instead of having an iftar, they'll have a ‘leftar’, which is just everyone bringing their leftovers and eating the leftovers so that there's no food wastage.
Sarah: Yeah, I love that. And I love how as a new generation, we are incorporating and evolving and adapting Ramadan to suit our modern lives. Women take on a lot of work in Ramadan. This whole podcast is about work and that's something that I noticed, young couples, and my generation, they're like, relooking that or having leftovers or changing their relationship to that kind of labour. So, I'm wondering if that relates to you at all, Najma? Is that something you think about?
Najma: I think I'm a bit of the opposite. I grew up with a single mum and it was four other siblings and like I had two older sisters as well and we would have like a traditional big kind of spread of food and I suppose like in my mind if I were to have like my own family because I don't at the moment, I would love to emulate that just because that's personal to my upbringing and to have like a big, you know, table with your kids and lots of different treats and lots of different dishes. I think that that is a very comfortable cosy thing that I have never kind of questioned in my future.
Sarah: You're still at the stage of life where you're enjoying your mum's and sisters' iftars right? Like you come home from work and it gets made for you, right Najma? like let's be honest!
Najma: Literally. So I'm just speaking from complete ignorance! Because I couldn't imagine how hard it would be to be, you know, a working mum, have little kids,
and be preparing a meal, like iftars for your family that are like multiple dishes, that is like wild unrealistic expectations. But the traditionalist in me is like, ‘hmm I can do it!’ (laughs)
Sarah: I say get the guy to do it, he can create the traditional meal and I’ll enjoy it. I'll have the rotis and samosas as long as I don't have to do all the work.
Najma: I mean I don't know about 30 days straight. That's the one that gets me. I'm like, whoa, maybe a couple of the first days I'm all excited…
Sara: I could see Najma doing it on the first day and then being like, I'm done guys.
Najma: By the end of the week, we’re doing leftars, this is a green Muslim house!
Sarah: We’ve become green. We are going green now. I mean it's real, the motherhood mental load is real, isn't it Sara?
Sara: Yeah, it definitely is. And we place so many unrealistic expectations on ourselves just generally speaking. And then you throw in a month of fasting to the mix and it's a recipe for mental health breakdown. So yeah, I mean I definitely don't put any pressure on myself in that regard even though that's what I grew up with. And I think that we're at a turning point in the world and in our generation where we can choose to do things differently and choose to push back against those unrealistic expectations that we've been made to think that we have to adhere to. What I will say about Ramadan is that I really enjoyed it growing up because I feel like it was the one time that my family all sat together and had dinner together because that's not something that we actually used to do. We used to see it on like, The Brady Bunch and be like, wow, that's so cool. And it was just never a thing because, you know, we were a household of eight kids, and everything was just so chaotic and then Hannah had Tae Kwon do class and Lina had soccer and so we never actually sat together as a family and had dinner. Ramadan was the only month that we did that and there was definitely a sense of family, strength and connection. So, I think, as long as you are doing that, it doesn't matter what you're eating and if you're eating leftars or an amazing spread, as long as you're connecting with your family, that's the main thing.
Sarah: And I might just end with some quick fire questions for you guys. What is the best thing about working in Ramadan? Najma?
Najma: Nothing! (laughs)
Sarah: That was a trick question.
Najma: Preferably being on annual leave. No, I think time goes faster in a way. So like your day going by faster and you having something to look forward to at the end of a workday,
Sarah: Nice. and Sara, best thing about working?
Sara: Having an excuse like, An excuse not to talk to people because, you know, you have a fasting breath. So you just don't want to talk to people and having an excuse to like not be productive because you're fasting and and yeah Ramadan is just like the big scapegoat for all of your problems.
Sarah: What is the worst thing about working in Ramadan, Najma?
Najma: Ummm feeling light-headed at work, thinking about food all the time and then breaking your fast and going. ‘Wow, I was thinking about this all day long like I'm embarrassed like I'm not doing that again.’ Only to repeat the same thought patterns the next day
Sarah: Yeah like oh my God, the colleagues look like chicken heads right now. (laughs) Sara for you, the worst thing about working in Ramadan?
Sara: For me, it's the caffeine withdrawals, not being able to have the caffeine I really suffer and the thing is that every year I don't make it easy on myself. It's not like I slowly cut down my caffeine intake or anything. I just go cold turkey and it's like the first two weeks, I'm acclimatising and like having the withdrawal symptoms, my eyes twitching and then the second two weeks I'm like, I've got over my caffeine addiction and then I'm back on it as soon as it is Eid.
Sarah: I bet both of you have heard the “Not even water?!”, phrase, when you've described fasting at work is that something that just becomes more iconic as the years go by, Sara?
Sara: Yeah, it's the famous white people proverb, like instead of just googling this stuff, people still are shocked and surprised when they ask us about Ramadan and what it entails and that we don't have water, you know, and they're like “Not even water?!” and it's like just google it, just let's not have this conversation anymore!
Sarah: Najma was that why you wrote your piece as kind of like a sling against the “Not even water?!” people?
Najma: Of course, Like it's a laugh, like it was all in jest and I think like, yeah, I just field those questions off. Fend them off with a stick.
Sarah: I love it. Thank you both, for being with. Ramadan Kareem, really excited to have you both on. Thank you for being here.
Najma: Thank you.
Sara: Thank you so much.
Sarah: The next and final episode of ‘My Ramadan’ is our Eid special. We have writer Raidah Shah Idil and doctor Inda Ahmad Zahri talking about how they celebrate and make Eid special for their kids. I hope you'll join me for it.
Hit the follow button, in your podcast app, and please share or review the podcast, if you're enjoying it, this episode was presented by me, Sarah Malik. Our audio engineer is Jeremy Wilmot. Executive producers are Sarah Malik and Caroline Gates. If you want to get in touch, email . You can find ‘My Ramadan’ in the SBS audio app or at sbs.com.au/audio.
