Key Points
- Palliative care for pets and euthenasia
- Animal communication
- Psychic mediumship and the afterlife
Vet Dr Courtney Prue is a passionate advocate for raising the standards of animal end-of-life care. She founded a holistic palliative care service for sick and senior animals after seeing a gap in the care that is provided to animals and families when it comes time to say goodbye.
I've been to family's homes where they're all saying goodbye to their dog - and this is the first time they've ever had to process death before and they know their children have never been through this before. And so this is their opportunity to let their kids experience death for the first time.Dr Courtney Prue, Lead Veterinarian at Rest Your Paws
In this episode we also talk to animal communicator and educator Trisha McCagh about how pets tell us it's their time.
People are very worried about getting the timing right. The only one that knows is the animal. So I'll say to the animal…what do you want me to do?Trisha McCagh
LISTEN TO
Saying Fur-well: Pets, Vets & the Afterlife
SBS Audio
14/05/202444:39
Links
Grave Matters is an SBS Audio podcast about death, dying and the people helping us understand both better. Find it in your podcast app such as the SBS Audio app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or LiSTNR.
Hosts: Anthony Levin and Nadine J. Cohen
Producer: Jeremy Wilmot
Writers: Anthony Levin and Nadine J. Cohen
Art and design: Karina Aslikyan
SBS team: Max Gosford, Joel Supple, Caroline Gates
Guest: Dr Courtney Prue, Trisha McCagh
If you'd like to speak to someone, you can reach a counsellor at Beyond Blue at any time, day or night, by calling 1300 22 4636 or visiting . Also, Lifeline offers 24/7 crisis support on 13 11 14, and supports people from culturally and linguistically diverse backgrounds. In an emergency call 000.
Transcript
Nadine: Anthony Levin, hi.
Anthony: Nadine Jolene Jolene Jolene Cohen.
Nadine: That's my favourite, that's my favourite of the whole series. Also, I love Dolly Parton.
Anyway, are you excited about our only non-human, animal-based episode?
Anthony: I am.
So can you tell me who we're chatting to?
Nadine: Well, today we're blessed with two guests. First up is Dr Courtney Prue, a vet and founder of Rest Your Paws, a holistic palliative care service for sick and senior animals and their families. Born and bred in Canada, Courtney is a passionate advocate for raising the standards of animal end-of-life care throughout Australia.
Dr Courtney Prue, welcome to Grave Matters.
Courtney: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here today.
Nadine: We're really excited to have you.
You're a certified hospice and palliative care veterinarian.
Courtney: Yes, that's right. I specialise in the end-of-life phase of a pet and the families that are caring for them.
Nadine: And what led you to where you are?
Courtney: I could really see that there was a gap in our profession, that we did an incredible job as veterinarians to diagnose and we have these incredible technologies for surgery and medicine. But when it came time to sort of say there's not much more we can do for your animal, there was often a little bit of a gap between the care that we provided that family and that animal to ensure that they maintained a really good quality of life.
And so I started a service where I dedicated my time to improving the well-being of pets at the very late stages of their life.
Nadine: Amazing and I must say I learned about you because of a friend who had used your services, a dear friend and neighbour whose beloved elderly Staffy, Holden Doodle, became you know, irreparably ill in the height of COVID and needed to be put down and he booked you to come.
And I remember going up to his apartment after it had happened and he was very upset but, you know, he just raved about what you had done and and the way that it had happened, and he was just so taken with the service that you provided.
And this is why I wanted to get you on the show because we've been talking about how people are doing this for humans, you know, the palliative and end-of-life space is improving as well, and so why not for pets?
Courtney: Yeah, absolutely. We can really see that the relationships that people have with their pets are evolving and changing. And even if you look back over the last 10 years, pets used to be considered to be your property and a lot of times pets would just be in the backyard and they'd sleep outside in their dog house.
Whereas, you know, fast forward over the last 10 to 20 years, their dogs are now in their family's bed, sleeping under the cover, tucked in nice and warm. They have um…
Nadine: Prams! They have prams.
Courtney: Prams and jackets and clothes, and they eat human food and they're really considered to be a member of the family. And you know, one thing I hear every single day is that having to say goodbye to their pet is actually harder than when they had to say goodbye to a family member.
And also following that is like a need for that family to be able to honour the life of their pet when it does, you know, come a time when they have to say goodbye and they know they're not going to ever see their pet again. They want to be able to celebrate their life and have a beautiful ending and goodbye that then allows them to process that grief in a really positive and healthy way.
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Nadine (VO): We've spoken in previous episodes about the sort of unofficial grief hierarchy that dictates how long we can be sad for. We asked Courtney if she encounters this in her work.
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Courtney: There is definitely an unspoken rule in the wider community, especially for those people that have never owned a pet before, that they just really don't understand that that that person could be grieving and so deeply upset about the loss of their pet.
And so, you know, we check in with the families and they say, you know, none of my friends understand and they just say he was only a dog, why are you so upset? Just get over it and get back to work.
And sometimes this grief is so profound and especially when they may not have anyone else in their life. You know, I go to homes where it's a little old man, and he's lost his wife and this little dog is the only thing that he still has that is representative of when his wife was still with him.
And you know, I've been to families' homes as well, where they're all saying goodbye to their dog, you know? And this is the first time they've ever had to process death and they know their children have never been through this before. And so this is, you know, their opportunity to let their kids experience death for the first time. And it helps them to feel closure, knowing that they were able to provide their pet with a beautiful goodbye.
Anthony: You mentioned before that you do observe that people find it harder to say goodbye to a pet than sometimes their own family members. Why do you think that is?
Courtney: Well, I think it's something that I hear on a very, very regular basis. You know, often when you do have an elderly or senior pet, you're with them around the clock. You're up at 6:00 AM, you're medicating them. You feel nervous to leave the house in case they get sick when you're not there. And you're you're up through the night checking on them. They're sleeping in your bed and over the final few years of your pet's life, you often find that you don't leave their side.
And you know the way our society works is, you know, even the closest family members, your mom and your dad, you know, you live together for the first 20/18 years of your life and then you move on as adults and you don't see as much of your even closest family members. Whereas in contrast to that, a dog or a cat is with you all day, every day. They're the first thing you see when you wake up and they're the last thing you see before you go to sleep. And so people develop these incredibly deep bonds with those animals.
***
Nadine: Can you take us through the general or the most common timeline after someone has reached out for your help?
Courtney: So families can reach out to our palliative care service if they have a very senior pet or they know that they're just naturally reaching the end of their life, or they've just been diagnosed with a terminal disease. That's where we step in and our palliative care is really focused both on the pet and their well-being and on improving and maintaining their quality of life.
But also, you know, equally as important is supporting the families who are having to make these really difficult decisions, and looking at their own personal well-being and how they're coping. And really giving the family a plan and a direction for the next few weeks or months to make them feel like they're more in control of the situation. And you know, they live in fear.
So I would say my job is somewhat of a counsellor. So I hold the family's hand and say we're going to get through this together and I'm going to be there to guide you and also be a logical outside opinion on when it is time so that you're not feeling like you have to end your pets life without any support or make those decisions by yourself and then plan that final appointment to make sure that you can always look back and it will bring a smile to your face, knowing that you got to be there with them and talk to them and just comfort them through those final moments.
And so our service has really evolved, particularly in recognising that people want so much more throughout that appointment. So it's how can we bring things into that appointment that allow people to grieve and feel that it's a safe place to cry and to share memories and to do some rituals which kind of give them that sense of closure, just like a funeral?
Nadine: What happens to the bodies of the pets? Are there different options?
Courtney: It's fairly similar to what's available for humans. The most common thing that we're doing now with pets is a private cremation. And that means that their beloved pet is cremated all by themselves and the ashes are returned home in a keepsake that they can choose.
The second option is that you can choose to cremate your pets with other pets, and that's a group cremation. And then we've partnered with veterinary universities to let people choose to donate their pets remains to the teaching hospital so that vets can continue to study and learn from the disease that the animal has.
And then of course people choose home burial. Most councils don't allow home burial, but it's something that most people just do on the sneaky sneaky.
***
Nadine: So Courtney, in addition to your vet and euthanasia work, I believe you're also an educator. You train vets and nurses in better end-of-life, care for animals and their families.
Courtney: Yeah, because in in vet school, we learn about euthanasia and this is how you do it. Use the communication standard guidelines, but no real education around what people need from us, from an emotional point of view. So I feel all vets are somewhat underprepared going into these really complex, emotionally overwhelming appointments.
And it's a big strain on our veterinarians at the moment with compassion fatigue and burnout. So what I've realised is that it's not just the animals and the people that need our help at the end of their lives, it's actually the veterinary industry.
And so my big passion now is I can make a small difference in the lives of the people and the animals that I touch, but where I can make the biggest difference is actually changing our industry.
***
Nadine: What's the best part of your job?
Courtney: That's a very, very good question and I'll start by saying, when I go into a family's home, every single family says to me this must be the worst job in the entire world. And I hear it every single day, probably, you know, five or six times a day. And you think how could you be putting pets to sleep all day long and still cope like this? It must be so emotionally taxing on you having to go through this on a daily basis.
And I find it really interesting because for me it's the most rewarding job that you could possibly imagine. And I think when you're able to see how much you're helping people and changing their perspective on death and how they can celebrate their pet’s life and you, you can see them able to involve their kids in the appointment and make it special and build resilience and their kids. It brings me a lot of joy and it fills up my cup.
And you know, the next day we receive the most beautiful messages from families just saying how much we've touched them and they'll never forget us. And even though there's a lot of sadness, it's my job to create a space where people can be sad and I try not to take that on myself. I think the most important part is that you're allowing them to feel everything they need to feel but you can somewhat distance yourself from taking on their grief.
Nadine: On the flip side, what's the part that really, you know, you don't like about what you have to do?
Courtney: There are situations where you really feel that the family needs to put their pet to sleep and you're getting a lot of resistance and they just can't come to terms with it and you can't get through that putting them to sleep would be the kind option. From an emotional standpoint, that can be tough.
Nadine: Yeah, I've just been thinking that essentially you're also a pet death doula. We've spoken to several death doulas on the show and it's the same, you're helping people navigate end-of-life.
Courtney: Yeah, I think that's very well said. I am definitely a death doula.
***
Anthony: I think people will be familiar with Cesar Milan, the kind of famous dog and animal communicator in North America who has a TV show, Happy Human, Happy Dog. And he's done lots of different work working with people with problem animals, especially dogs and I think he's developed a scale that he uses to help people work out if the timing is right to put down their dog.
A common question for families to ask is, am I doing it too early or am I doing it too late? And so all of those things are really kind of built into the grief process in making sure that they get this right, so to speak. Is that something that you're also helping families to navigate?
Courtney: Yeah every family, I would say, goes through that exact journey. They want more than anything to make sure that they make the decision at the right time because nobody wants their pet to suffer or feel pain. But they also don't want to take away any days that they could have where they're still going to be good days and that they can enjoy the time they have left with their pets.
Or they're in this battle emotionally, of going am I waiting too long? He didn't want to eat today, does that mean I waited too long? And then he eats the next day and oh, he he can't get up anymore, but he's still wagging his tail. Is that his will to live? I'm really confused.
So what I try to say to people is there's never going to be a perfect time. Because if it's so clear and obvious to you that you need to put your pet to sleep, then you've probably waited too long because maybe your pet suffered to make it so clear in your mind.
On the flip side, if they make the decision a week too early before it was really obvious in their mind, are they going to live with that for the next 10 years? Thinking what if I did it too soon?
So it feels like a lose-lose situation for people and so I try to tell families that there is no perfect time. The more important idea is that in order to prevent suffering and to prevent pain, you should always try to do it one day too early rather than one day too late. So that's something that we try to guide them on, is being comfortable with the idea that you can put them to sleep before they've lost everything and actually do a more quantitative scaling.
As you're saying, Cesar Milan has his scales that he uses because people like data and they like to be able to quantify quality of life, not just from a subjective point of view. So we've created similar type scales that we use for our families, where it really looks in detail in a quantitative sense of like what is not just physical well-being, not just what you can see on the outside - are they eating? Drinking? Vomiting? Diarrhoea? - all those really obvious signs.
But what is their emotional well-being like? And from a mental health point of view, how is your pet coping with the disease that they have? Because it's not all about, you know, they don't have to be vomiting and not eating and unable to breathe for you to make the decision. They could be incredibly anxious or stressed or depressed, or feel isolated because they can't interact with their family anymore.
So I try to open up that conversation and that there's so much more to be thinking about than just their physical well-being. And then using all of those buckets combined to make the decision rather than just one factor alone and that really helps people to sort of feel comfortable that they're making the decision at the the best time for them and their pet.
Nadine: I think it's hard because I think unless you've seen, particularly with humans, unless you've actually watched someone die of a terminal illness or geriatric conditions, this idea of ending suffering and giving dignity is so abstract for people. And this idea we've talked a lot about, which is quality versus quantity.
Whenever someone gets diagnosed, I hear well, he's got six months to live but hopefully, it will be more. And I really try and make the people I know understand that you don't want more if that means they're suffering. More, you want as much quality time as you can have with them and then you want them to die as quickly as possible.
Courtney: And the idea of quantity over quality sometimes overpowers I find.
I hear very regularly all I wanted was that he would get to his 17th birthday. And the pet’s in such a bad way and they've just been trying so hard to get him to his 17th birthday because in their mind that's like such an accomplishment. And I'm like, but he can't breathe! And I tell them, even if you get him to his 17th birthday, it's going to be the worst birthday that he's ever had in his whole life.
So it's like really trying to change that mindset to I don't think he's going to enjoy his birthday party. It would be wonderful for you to be able to tell all your friends that he made it to 17 but he's not going to be able to eat birthday cake because he's not eating anymore.
You know, so it's just about sort of changing the perspective for them and helping them. I try to be the voice of the animal; I try to give animals voices to try to tell people what their pet is likely feeling or experiencing.
Nadine: Luckily, my cat is never gonna die, so I'm never gonna have this problem.
Anthony: I was just gonna say, I love that idea of you being the voice for the animals because we forget that they are mostly autonomous beings. And so I really think that should be celebrated, that idea that they have a voice and they maybe don't exercise it in the way that we're used to or that we hear. And pet death doulas like yourself can fill that particular gap.
Courtney: Yeah, and it's like they may not be able to speak our English language, but they talk to us in their behaviours and their facial expressions and their body posture. And that's all part of you know, the education that I'm giving to people is to say actually, when cats are squinting their eyes and they, you know, they're holding their head lower and their ears are flattened, that is how they tell you they're in pain.
And everyone says oh my God! Really?
Nadine: She’s been doing that for years!
Courtney: That's the way she's looked for the last six months!
And I'm like if I show you the pain scoring tool and I look at the cat that's in severe pain, your cat looks exactly like that. And I show them and they say, oh my God, I had no idea. She's been trying to tell me this entire time, and I need you to come now and put her to sleep.
I don't think people ever want their pets to suffer, it's just that they don't understand their language.
***
Nadine: Throughout the series, we’ve been exploring this concept of a good death. Have you thought about what a good death is? And if not, can you?
Courtney: I hear very regularly people saying, I just want my pet to pass in their sleep and I think that's something that we hear all the time for the human population. I don't know if everybody knows this, but the term euthanasia actually comes from the Greek term meaning good death. And so euthanasia is supposed to mimic what is a very, very good death because it is passing in your sleep.
So it would be one where you didn't feel the fact that you were passing away or your body shutting down and you had no emotional connection to that process happening.
But a good death goes beyond that and one thing that pet owners say to me is, I don't want him to be alone when he dies. So the idea of being able to be there with your loved one while they're passing, to know that you can comfort them and support them is something that's really important to people and I think often they think of it as a good death if you're there for them.
And so, you know, with euthanasia and being able to choose that and ensure it's peaceful and comfortable, and also allow everyone who wants to be there to be there, it makes a death as good as it can possibly be.
Nadine: That is a very good answer.
***
Anthony: I've got an offbeat question for you.
Where do animals go after they die?
Courtney: Oh I love this and it’s something that I find really tricky to navigate because you know, you're going into families' homes and you don't know if they're religious or what their, you know, spiritual beliefs are. And so we always light a candle for every pet before we give them the final medication and I say I'm going to light this candle for Fluffy and I hope that it lights the way for him on his next journey. And I think you can decide your own beliefs.
People love the idea of the pet that passed before their last pet being up there, waiting for their pet to join them so they can run around together and be best friends like they used to be. So I go with that. I'm like, you know what? Max is definitely up there and as soon as Frankie gets up there, they’re going to be chasing balls together. And that makes people so happy. So you know, that's one thing.
If you're my three-year-old son, I say Mummy goes to work in the rainbows. And he says you work in the rainbows? And I say yes, when the doggies die, they go over the Rainbow Bridge and Mummy works in the rainbows with the doggies that go there.
So now he's told everyone at daycare that my mum works in the rainbows and all of the daycare teachers swarmed me the other day and said, can you please tell us where you work? Because he doesn't stop talking about you working in the rainbows, and I said, oh, I put dogs to sleep every single day and I told him that's where they go when they die. And they were like oh my God.
***
Nadine: Is there anything that we haven't touched on that you would like to impart?
Courtney: Yeah, I guess I would just love for anyone listening who owns a pet and who has just got that terrible news that they may have to say goodbye. You aren't alone and there are people who can guide you and help you on that journey.
And it's really important that you take the time to learn about what the end of life looks like. What does pain look like? What is quality of life? And get a really good handle on it so that you feel equipped to make the best decision you can at the best time.
And we're here to help.
Nadine: Very sage advice. Dr Courtney Prue, thank you so much.
Courtney: You're welcome. Thank you for having me on the show.
Anthony: It's been great, yeah. Thanks for coming on. It's been really great having you.
***
Nadine: So that was Dr Courtney Prue, an angel on Earth.
Who's next, Mr Levin?
Anthony: Well, Ms Cohen, next up is Trisha McCagh, an animal communicator, educator, speaker and author who helps people to better connect with their pets and other animals.
Nadine, this next interview is a bit out there and I know spiritual stuff is not really your bag.
Nadine: Look, it's not, but I'm open to it.
Anthony: Great!
Nadine: Trisha McCagh, welcome to Grave Matters.
Trisha: Thank you so much for having me.
Nadine: You describe yourself as an animal communicator and educator.
Trisha: Correct, that's exactly what I do.
Nadine: What exactly is animal communication?
Trisha: So an animal communicator is someone who translates the silent language of animals. So, animals talk in a silent language, it's telepathic and intuitive. They can talk amongst themselves but we're just another animal so we can actually do it too. We were born with it, and then we just kind of left it in our past.
But it's actually a silent language that is universal through all species. So I've just kind of reawakened mine and I translate for people so they can come to me for behavioural, emotional, we can assist in health issues as well. And we just ask the animal and then I translate back.
Nadine: Can anyone learn to communicate with animals?
Trisha: Absolutely. Anybody can do it because I've already done it. They're already born with it, so it's just like, reawakening it. You have to have a quiet mind. You have to clear the mind so that when the animal speaks or communicates with you, there's nothing in there. The problem with humans is that there's 3000 things going on at any one time. So I think the hardest thing about this whole silent language is being silent.
Nadine: I know you train others in how to do it now, how did you hone this this skill or craft or ability?
Trisha: So how it happened for me is that I actually heard one of my cats speak to me.
One of my cats was very young and he was very ill. And what happened was he was on his deathbed and he was on life support and I actually heard him speak. But only my mind heard it if you know what I mean. If anybody else was in the room, they wouldn't necessarily have heard it unless they can hear the silent language.
So, I didn't know what that was, and to cut a long story short, I then started researching this. And then I found communicators and then I realised you know, this is a thing around the world. And so I started travelling internationally to see people in their field who are doing really great stuff, you know and I started learning from them.
Anthony: And can you tell us what your cat said to you when you heard him?
Trisha: Yeah, absolutely. Interestingly enough, I was saying to him, you're only young, you can do this, you can make it, keep trying. And then out of nowhere, I heard you have to let me go. You have to set me free. And that was heartbreaking cause it was the opposite of what I was thinking. But because I was so heartbroken and I was so in the moment - this is the key - because I was in that moment, I had nothing going on. He spoke to me and I heard it as clear as a bell.
So it's pretty interesting stuff - a bit of a shock to me. But after that, I started hearing other animals speak to me. I'd be walking down the street and a dog would stop right in front of me and he'd look right into my eyes and he goes, you can hear me. You know, like whoa, you know?
Nadine: The line that comes to mind is with great power comes great responsibility.
Trisha: Yeah, absolutely. Look, there's a lot of integrity that goes with this. And it's like a lot of - for want of a better word - spiritual practises. If you don't go in with the right integrity, you can't hear them. You just won't hear them or you'll hear it a very small, minute amount. You won't get the whole thing.
***
Nadine: You've been intimately connected with animals since early childhood, and you talk about how these were your closest friendships and companions.
Trisha: I never saw them as pets or something else; they were just my friends; they were just someone else. Now my childhood was a little bit difficult with my parents, you know? They fought a lot and they didn't get on. And you know, it's just a lot of difficulties with that. So if I went horse riding, which I was so fortunate to do - his name was Ali Baba, this horse and I told him everything - I would tell him things, I would discuss with him. I told him about my life dreams. I didn't tell anyone else. I had no one else to tell. So they, to me, are just like your regular friends because they're no different to us. Actually, they're a little bit different to us in the fact that they don't judge and they have unconditional love and a few other really good traits that we're still learning to do. But they go way beyond feathers and fur.
And that's why my biggest mission is to get everybody talking to animals. Because if everyone was talking to them, they wouldn't harm them. And also to see the value that they create on this planet, you know? Cause could you imagine not having any animals? Just having humans?
Nadine: I would not like to imagine that, thank you. I could imagine not having humans, though.
Trisha: Yeah, I think we've all done that.
Nadine: I guess they were, you know, they were your refuge.
Trisha: Yeah, and you know what? They are the perfect friend. They are perfect.
***
Anthony: You were talking before, Trisha, about losing your cat. And you've lost a couple of cats, it sounds like. And obviously, we're very sorry because I know how deep that connection must have been for you. Do you still feel those animals, those beings, around you? Are you still able to communicate with them?
Trisha: Yes, easily. And even though that makes it much easier than for other people…
I've lost four animals in 18 months because they were all elderly. You know, they were either in their 20s, or my dogs were 16. They were all elderly, all at the same time. But yes, I can still hear them. I can still see them. And if I start getting too upset, they'll say come on, you know the truth about this. And I go, yeah, I know but I'm still a human. Because I still miss the physical side of things and the company and all of that. But yes, you can talk to them, just the same as you did, they just don't have their physicalness.
So it does help though because I can only imagine for people who are listening, the thought that they're losing them forever, you know that that animal that they've loved is now gone and that's it, it's finished. I just want to let you know it hasn't.
Anthony: Where do you say that they are?
Trisha: The same place where we go when we're finished with this lifetime. We go to the afterlife, we go to the other realm. Some people call it Heaven, some people call it lots of different names. To me, it's just the other side because it's not this physical side. And we came from there and we go back there.
Yes, you'll see them as animals when you go to the other side, because they will come in the form that you last recognised them in. But they're no more an animal than I am, and I'm no more a human than they are. We've just decided to come in these forms. So they've come as an animal because it works well for their journey. And I've come as a human. They call it space suits. They just say you're in a different space suit to me.
And also, we get wiped. We come down here in the birth process and our memory gets wiped. Some of us who are on a certain journey will remember bits, and get little flashbacks. Some people don't remember it at all. Animals never forget it. When you're in an animal form, your memory does not get wiped. So that's why animals are a big part of our spiritual journey and soul.
Anthony: Just listening to you talk about the forgetting reminded me that, I mean, Nadine and I are both Jewish. So in our Jewish tradition, this little mark on the lips here called the philtrum is said to be left by the Angel of Forgetting, who presses her finger there.
Nadine: For people listening, because this is not a visual medium, Anthony is touching the midline between his lips and his nose.
Anthony: That's right. So that little mark that you have in between your nose and top lip is said to be the spot where the Angel of Forgetting comes and touches your lips just before you're born and you forget where you've come from.
Nadine: I've never heard that before and I like it.
Trisha: And if you note, animals don't have one.
Anthony: Oh I like that, yeah.
***
Nadine: Taking you back to Beau, your beautiful cat who told you he was ready to go - do animals always know when they're ready to go?
Trisha: When it's going to be their time, yes. And it's coming, yes.
So a lot of my work is that somebody will come to me and say my animal's very sick, but I don't know when the right time is. People are very worried about getting the timing right. The only one that knows is the animal.
So I'll say to the animal. What do you want me to do? Do you want me to get them to organise something? And they go I'm not ready yet; I’ll let you know. And they just let me know when exactly the right time is and then that's when we do it. And they often choose a passing that's suited just for you. So animals will do the right thing for you and the conversation of that animal leading up to that, right up until the time when the vet comes is usually can you please take care of my mom? Can you please look after my dad? Or can you just make sure my family's OK?
They're not scared. They're not worried about it. They know where they're going. They feel guilty for you - all of a sudden you're crying and you're in despair, and it's about them and that really greatly upsets them. They just want you to be happy and know they're OK. They're absolutely OK.
Nadine: And you mentioned to me when we spoke earlier that they don't want us to grieve.
Trisha: Yeah, they don't.
Nadine: Can you explain that?
Trisha: They don't want us to grieve because your animals are connected to you - intuitively, consciously, by the heart centre. There's something between you and your animal that will never disappear, even when they go. But they don't want you to grieve because everything you feel, they can feel. And like I said, they don't ever want to cause you pain. They wish the best for you, and that is absolutely by every animal I've ever spoken to.
Anthony: I guess the loss people can experience when they lose their pet can be pretty huge. To hear you say that they don't want us to grieve, what do we do with all that emotion?
Trisha: They know we have to but they don't want us do it for long. They understand that you've gotta grieve but what they ask you to do is try to remember the good times, not the last moment. So if that animal is 15 or 16, try to remember the 15 years prior to them leaving rather than when they left or the bit leading up to it. It's such a short amount of time. Think about all of the other stuff, all of the joys, all of the happiness. Don't dwell on the sadness.
***
Anthony: One of the other services that you offer is called a Rainbow Bridge reading. Can you tell us what that is?
Trisha: Yes, so people can ask questions of their animal from the other side. Because as we know, you know, they're they're still with us, they're just not in body form. So they can ask questions and I will translate them. You know, did their passing go well? Who are they with? What are they doing now? All of those questions.
In this particular reading, I get a photo of the animal and the person and then I go sit down and I go into a certain state of consciousness and I will channel a personalised reading from the animal directed to them. So this is a stream of information, more related to their sole purpose, a direct message that greatly helps them move on. I don't know what they're going to talk about, they just start and I write.
So you know, this I think is important for people, for their grief and to move on.
Anthony: I'm sure it's immensely important to achieve some sort of closure to be able to receive that kind of information.
Trisha: Yeah, absolutely. People need it, you know, and people need to know. People say is it easier for you because you can hear and see them afterwards? Yes, but they can hear and see you. Whether they passed today, whether they passed 20 years ago, they still hear and see you. So still keep talking to them.
And if you notice something that you feel is their presence, please acknowledge it. Just know that at whatever time you wanna say something to them, you can and they can hear you even if you can't hear them back.
Nadine: What if that soul goes into another form? Are you still able to talk to the animal no matter what?
Trisha: Yes. So I don't know whether you're familiar with this? I'm here, but I also have a higher self which is on the other side, but I'm still connected.
And you also might know about time being… is it linear or not? So we're actually doing all these things at the same time…
Anthony: You’re speaking my language, Trisha!
Trisha: Yeah, so we're not past present and future. So I'm in other places right now. So that animal can be in multiple places as another being and still be your dog while you're still here on the Earth plane and you can talk to them as your dog. We're doing all sorts of things right now.
Anthony: I feel like we've gone pretty deep into what some might call the woo-woo. But woo-woo is my jam.
Nadine: That is Anthony's jam.
Trisha: Woo-woo is my jam.
Anthony: I'm very happy to be there with you.
Trisha: You know what, Anthony? Woo-woo's becoming less woo-woo.
Anthony: I know, I know.
Trisha: Maybe some of the listeners are gonna go, I don't know, that's a bit too much for me, which is fine. But you're gonna find out we're actually talking the reality, and they're in another reality.
Anthony: Everyone's on their path, right? Everyone's at their stage of consciousness. And you know, everyone's ready for different information and that's fine.
Trisha: They are.
***
Anthony: I was just thinking about Koko the gorilla, the very famous gorilla that was taught American Sign Language. And something that came to me was that during the experiments and the research that they were doing in that particular lab with Koko, there was a cat called All Ball that used to be around that she loved playing with.
At a certain point in time, the cat was hit by a car and killed, and they were talking to Koko using sign language to ask her how she was, and she was telling them I'm very sad. I'm. I'm really sad that the cat’s died. So she was grieving.
And I guess I'm interested in bringing that into the conversation that we touched on earlier, around how animals maybe don't want us to spend a lot of time grieving. Is it possible that animals themselves need to grieve sometimes? What's your take on that?
Trisha: Yes, they do grieve. Some animals especially because they only have that connection. They have it with their person as well, but especially if that soul came with them. Like, there's some animals that live together.
Like I'm dealing with cat grief right now through a client. And the cat stopped eating and it was losing weight and it was getting unwell and all of these things cause the cats had been together for 18 years.
***
Nadine: We are asking our guests about the notion of a good death, and I'd like to ask you, what to you would constitute a good death? And I wanna ask you that in terms of yourself but in terms of animal kind, as well.
Trisha: Well, I think everybody wants to go in their sleep, don't we? Just drift off in your sleep, let your energy drift off, all of that. With animals, it's the same. Just very peaceful. Whether it's natural or with a vet, they want their family members there and they just want to drift off. They want it to be loving. They want it to be peaceful. So that for an animal is very important.
So they can actually shift, their soul, can shift out of the physical even before. And from the moment they leave their body, they haven't zipped to the other side, and you've gotta wait for them to come and give you a sign. They immediately stay with you and they will stay with you until they know you're OK. And as I said, they can be in two different places so don't think, you know, that they're gone anywhere. It's not like that.
Nadine: That is a perfect place to end.
Anthony: I think people will find that very comforting.
Nadine: Thanks so much, Trisha McKay. We’ve loved having you on the show.
Anthony: Yeah, it's been wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us.
Trisha: Thank you, I've thoroughly enjoyed it and it's always wonderful, talking about animals.
***
Nadine: Thanks to Trisha McKay and again to Dr Courtney Prue. I'm now off to read my cat's mind and make her promise to never leave me.
Anthony: Hey, before we go, there is an outstanding piece of business.
Nadine: Sure.
Anthony: The J name.
Nadine: My middle name?
Anthony: Yeah.
Nadine: That you have guessed wrongly for an entire series?
Anthony: Yeah, we need to know what it is. But before we find out, here's a bunch of guesses that didn't make the cuts:
- Jakarta?
- Juju bean?
- Janitor?
- Judy Judy Judy?
- Jackass?
- Jeremiah was a bullfrog and he was a good friend of mine?
- J-pop?
- Job?
- Japes? Which is what all of this has been.
OK, please, put me out of my misery. Tell me.
Nadine: It's really not that exciting now, but it's Jacqueline.
Anthony: Jacqueline was 17.
Nadine: I don’t…
Anthony: Franz Ferdinand? No? The fans out there will know what?
Nadine: OK and with that, thanks, everyone.
Anthony: Thanks!
***
If this episode has raised issues for you and you'd like to seek mental health support, you can contact Beyond Blue on 1300 224 636 or visit .
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Grave Matters is an SBS podcast, written and hosted by Anthony Levin and Nadine J. Cohen and produced by Jeremy Wilmot. The SBS team is Carolyn Gates, Joel Supple and Max Gosford. If you'd like to get in touch, e-mail audio@sbs.com.au.
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